In this continuation of our conversation with Jeffrey Murer, we shift from the specifics of Hungarian politics to examine how violence operates at the deepest levels of human consciousness.
The conversation centers on Murer's concept of "psychic violence"—the unconscious processes that precede and enable both symbolic and physical violence. Drawing on psychoanalytic theory, particularly the work of Ferenczi and Klein, Murer argues that we internalise messages about who constitutes a threat through superego development, and we experience pleasure when we correctly identify these "threats"—even when they pose no actual danger.
Mustafa offers an analogy about urban dwellers who love their pets while remaining blind to industrial farming's violence, illustrating how we develop "split consciousness" that makes certain suffering invisible. The discussion explores how this operates: we're taught unconsciously what constitutes a threat, we reproduce these identifications to demonstrate belonging, and we literally cannot see the humanity of those we've learned to exclude.
The conversation takes a philosophical turn through Emmanuel Levinas's ethics, arguing that even in the face of perceived threat, we must see the humanity of the Other. Murer suggests that the denial of another's subjectivity—refusing to hear their pain—is itself an act of violence. This leads to challenging questions about identity, belonging, and the paradox that our need to belong creates boundaries that inflict harm on those excluded.
The episode concludes with a powerful reflection on the importance of listening—even to those whose views we find abhorrent. As Murer notes from his career studying Hungarian fascists: "The best way for me to contribute to anti-fascism is by listening to fascists." It's a conversation that asks us to confront not just societal violence, but our own unconscious participation in systems of harm we cannot see.
